An Interview With
Lesbian Erotic Author Jean Roberta

by Girlphoria

Olivia : How did you initially get into the sex industry?

Jean: By answering a classified ad in the local newspaper!It was the early 1980s, and several drastic things had happened to me at approximately the same time.I escaped from an abusive husband in 1978 when my baby daughter was 3 months old, then left my parents' home in 1981 when I began life on my own as a single mother.

I found that I couldn't get a penny of child support out of my ex-husband, despite having a legal right to it in theory. The typing jobs I relied on between terms at university all through the 1970s were drying up due to the change in office technology.æTyping pools were being replaced by individual women on word processors, and I didn't have computer skills.

So I was desperate. I relied on a combination of work with an escort agency, nude modelling for university art classes, short-term marketing research jobs and welfare for most of the 1980s. I was also a part-time graduate student.

Olivia : Were there any scary moments during the time you were working as a call girl and exotic dancer?

Jean: Yes. The problem with escort agency work is that clients/johns are told they have to pay an hourly "agency fee," which is legal because presumably this is not for sexual service.æThen the call girl has to negotiate face-to-face for her own fee for services that the agency owner (pimp or madam) doesn't officially know about. Theoretically this system keeps everyone out of jail, but clients who don't understand the system are often angry at being asked to pay "extra" for something they thought they already paid for.

I had several tense encounters with men in motel rooms(and sometimes in their homes) who weren't willing to pay.Some even thought the escort agency was a computer datingservice, and they couldn't understand why they had to payfor anything.æThis always made me wonder if they were thengoing to rape me. So as soon as I realized that myexplanations weren't getting me anywhere, I left fast. I was lucky that I never experienced any violence.æ Maybethis has to do with Canadian politeness, or maybe I had a guardian angel!

Group scenes involving drinking (dancing for a group of men at a "stag") are so dangerous that I could see why most of the other girls in my first agency escort wouldn't accept those jobs regardless of how much was offered.

At one "stag," I was supposed to be offered to the groom (paid for by his buddies), but he refused, so then there was some confusion about what was going to happen next.

After someone poured a bottle of beer over me, the mood of the crowd seemed to get uglier.æThe man who had hired me threw a blanket around me (I was naked), muttered "Let's go," and quickly got me out of a situation which might have turned into a gang-rape.

Olivia : What do you say to those who argue that sex work objectifies women and therefore harms society?

Jean: I think sex work is a symptom rather than a cause. Women are objectified in various ways in male-dominated cultures, and in many cases sex work provides some RELIEF for problems caused by poverty and sometimes by violence. Getting paid for sex is better than simply being used for sex (or other services) and not paid. Some men seem willing to treat high-end prostitutes (call girls) better than they treat other women on the principle that an object is worth what you pay for it!

Feminist attacks on sex work have done nothing to address the reasons why, for many women, this work is better than the alternatives.

Olivia : In your essay "Feminist Sex Wars" you discuss physical and sexual abuse of women and children in the 1950s and pointed out that it was in large part the silence and shame of the victims that perpetuated the violence.æI see parallels with the current violence against women and children in the sex industry.æWhat, in your view, would help to end the violence against women and children in the sex industry?

Jean: Decriminalizing sex work would be a good start.æLaws against sex work are really impossible to implement sanely no matter how they are worded.

In Canada, for instance, "prostitution" as such is not mentioned in the federal Criminal Code, but there are laws against "soliciting," "living off the avails" and "keeping a common bawdy house" - the archaic language seems like a sign of the underlying attitudes.

What exactly is "soliciting"? Does "living off the avails" apply only to pimps who collect a percentage of someone else's earnings, or to those who live off their OWN "avails"?

While I was working as a call girl, I asked several lawyers to define my legal rights as precisely as possible. It seems they couldn't, because the laws are subject to interpretation by local law enforcement. This means that in an election year or after a high-profile murder, or when prostitution is in the headlines as a social problem, the police will be under pressure to round up some bodies to show that they are on the case.

Criminalizing sex work makes it almost impossible for sex workers to rely on police for protection from violence. In some cases, sex workers need protection FROM police violence.æSome sex workers won't report thefts or assaults which have no clear relationship to their work, simply because they know they won't be seen as "innocent victims." Part-time sex workers who are also trying to survive in "straight" settings (school or a "day job") can be exploited by those who could "expose" them or set them up for arrest.

Women and children in sex work will always be targets of the violence of the streets as long as they are also targets of the official violence of the law.

Targeting the management end of the sex biz (pimps, business owners) for legal persecution doesn't really help because in some cases, the pimps are protecting their stables from worse abuses.æ Bosses and managers in general have a logical, profit-driven motive for wanting their work force to be healthy and willing to work!

Olivia : Do you think that the sex slave trade, especially with relation to children, would be curtailed if the United States and other countries in the western world held a more mature and reasonable attitude toward sex work?

Jean: Yes. The conditions that many sex workers have to endure (including the use of force) are somewhat parallel to the horrendous working conditions of unskilled laborers before there were unions or laws protecting the rights of workers. If sex work were seen as parallel to other types of work, then clear abuses such as violence, kidnapping, confinement and the exploitation of children could be dealt with separately from prostitution as such.

Olivia : Could you delineate the major differences between US and Canadian law as they apply to sexual freedom?

Has the Canadian censorship of sexually explicit material had any impact on violence against women?æIn other words, who are these laws helping and who do they hurt?

Jean: Despite the image Canada seems to have as a prudish place, based on government seizures of sexually-explicit material on its way from the US, several of Canada's laws dealing with sex are more LIBERAL than equivalent American laws.

For instance, lesbianism or woman-woman sex has NEVER been illegal in Canada, as a Commonwealth country, based on Queen Victoria's famous refusal to sign a British law against it on grounds that "ladies wouldn't do that." Before we gained laws PROHIBITING discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, however, it was legal for employers to fire or refuse to hire known gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered people, and for landlords to deny them living-space.

A completely new package of federal Canadian laws on sexual assault (formerly known as various offenses ranging from indecent assault to rape) was passed by the government in 1983.

This package specifies three levels of sexual assault which are parallel to the three levels of common assault, which are ultimately derived from British Common Law.

The emphasis is now on assault (or nonconsensual violence) rather than "rape" as forced intercourse. At least in theory, these laws are fairer to women than the ones they replaced, though of course any laws, no matter how fair, still have to be interpreted by a legal system which is still largely male and (especially in the case of judges) relatively old.

In the 1980s, Canadians also got a new "charter of rights" which includes the rights of women to be treated as equal citizens with men.æThis is equivalent to the Equal Rights Amendment which American feminists fought long and hard for, with no success. (The anniversary of the birth of our charter is April 17, in case you want to celebrate with us!)

As far as I can see, the social climate in Canada (which varies from region to region, just as it does in the US) is not necessarily more sex-negative than in the US. Border seizures have to do with the fact that most printed and filmed material produced on this continent comes from the US.æ Canadians wanting access to any kind of specialized reading or viewing matter (such as sexually-explicit books, magazines and films) usually have to import them from the US, so Canada Customs, the border police, is easily placed to determine what Canadians are allowed to read or to see.

If most reading and viewing matter in the US were imported from somewhere else, US Customs would probably fill the same watchdog role.æIn the nineteenth-century US, a man named Anthony Comstock (originally a minor official) enabled the US Postal Service to police the mails in a similar way.

The history of censorship shows that a few individuals can acquire a disturbing amount of power to stop the circulation of certain types of material.æLaws on "obscenity" are usually as vaguely worded as laws on prostitution, so individual officials are free to interpet them as they see fit. Often those officials believe that they have a mandate to "protect" the public from moral danger, and would be lax if they didn't do it.

I don't know whether the seizures of sexually-explicit material has had an impact on violence against women, but the general crime rate does not seem to have gone down as a result.æThe types of material most often seized, though, generally seem to fit into the categories of "gay or lesbian" and "BDSM." So members of sexual communities which have traditionally been discriminated against have more trouble getting their own newsletters and other material across the border than do married heterosexuals.

Olivia : You discuss in "Feminist Sex Wars" how corporations and capitalism help to maintain the status quo with regard to keeping women and children oppressed.æConsidering how powerful these forces remain, what can individuals and groups seeking social change do to erode these barriers to our freedom?

Jean: Maintaining alternative media seems important.æPublicizing labor abuses, government cutbacks, legal injustice and other signs that conditions for women and children are getting worse seems to be the first step in fighting back.

The problem is that the media itself (newspapers, magazines, radio and TV stations, etc.) seems to be centralizing and is not especially receptive to news that might tarnish the image of corporate and government sponsors.æLuckily, the Internet is hard to police, at least so far, so information can be circulated in cyberspace. Political lobbying combined with the spread of information can result in positive social change, but it is an uphill battle.

Olivia : How deeply does religion impact political decisions as it relates to sexual freedom?

Jean: Strangely enough, church attendance throughout North America seems to have declined steadily for several generations, but religious reasons are often given for demands for government intervention to limit sexual freedom.

The Christian Right Wing seems to have political influence because it has a political agenda.æIn the town where I live, I also discovered that Islamic fundamentalists share some of the same goals as their Christian brothers, especially with regard to intolerance for homosexuality and for the rights of women.æ I also know a witty and progressive nun who writes raunchy lyrics for a group that puts on educational skits for the local AIDS organization.

I suspect that religious beliefs in general are less of a motive than an excuse for the war on sexual freedom, but right-wing lobby groups make vote-hungry politicians nervous.

Unfortunately, politicans sometimes try to placate those who make the most noise.

Olivia : We have discussed the outward obstacles to freedom so let's shift the focus to inward struggles...mainstream feminist groups seem to have their own brand of discrimination based on, among other things, class, race and sexuality. Is current feminism still a useful tool in the fight for freedom?

Jean: Yes, because I don't know any word other than "feminism" which really applies to the fight for freedom from sexual and gender-based oppression.

At the moment we seem to be in a state of mass confusion because many of the women I consider feminist in some sense have stopped calling themselves "feminists" (or never did) because of the way they have been disillusioned by mainstream feminism.

However, women who feel they have been driven out of feminist groups or betrayed by those who claim to represent them don't seem to become conservative defenders of male power. So if the dropouts and rejects aren't "feminists," what are they? Terms such as "sex-positive feminist" and "power feminist" are sometimes used to distinguish some feminists from others, but the qualifiers aren't always clear enough.

Olivia : Women still seem to internalize some pretty hateful messages about themselves especially regarding our sexual expression and body image. How much of these negatives do you feel come from mainstream media as opposed to pornography which many feminists see as Public Enemy Number One?

Jean: Negative messages about women have a very long tradition in male-dominated cultures. This tradition predates the mass media by several centuries, although it changes form from one place and era to the next.æSexually-explicit or pornographic material which promotes a negative image of women is just wrapping a very old message in a sexual container.

The language of sex can be used to say a variety of things, and often the context determines how the message will be read.

Olivia : Again in "Feminist Sex Wars" you touched on this notion that for women sex is more emotional than physical.æCould you expand upon this concept?

Jean: The claim that "sex" is more emotional than physical for ANYONE is based on confusion over what the word means. Sex, as the word is generally understood, is not an emotion.æIt is a type of physical activity. Much of the conflict and confusion caused by anti-porn feminism seems to be based on the notion that love is better than sex. Whether or not one believes this, it doesn't therefore follow that sex must be opposed to love (or an expression of hatred), or that sex and love can't be combined.

Women are often afraid to express lust, or a need for sexual relief, unless it is disguised as "love" because we have been traditionally punished for being sexual, but rewarded for expressing love for men. If women hadn't been socially progammed to express these feelings, it seems unlikely to me that human females would be the only species never to go into "heat" in any sense!

Olivia : Sado-masochism is becoming tres chic in the media these days, particularly images of bondage.æSome believe that it is merely another expression of sexuality, a means to explore the power dynamics of sex and sexuality while others believe that it is sanctified and glorified violence and is therefore dangerous to all women and children in society.æWhere do you fall in this spectrum?

Jean: I think it is important to remember that the SM interaction which is represented in works of literature (broadly speaking) and especially in visual media can be classified as fantasy and drama.æAccording to what I have read, some of the more elaborate props and costumes which appear in films or photo spreads would not even be practical in a real "scene" (which is itself an acted-out fantasy), but this doesn't matter in a purely visual "scene."æ What you see is what you see.

I think sado-masochism is especially appealing for writers, whether or not they are involved in it in "real life" (outside of writing) or whether they would want to be. Plots in general are often moved along by conflict or contrast between characters, between feelings, between cultures or value-systems.æIn erotic writing, a situation involving dominance and submission, bondage or intense sensation is likely to be attention-getting and to move forward in some way.

Sado-masochism as drama or as the complementary meeting of different needs is different from nonconsensual violence. I realize that the difference might not always be clear-cut, and that a "chic" expression of sexual daring might sometimes be a closet or cover for real abuse. However,

that was true even when SM, as such, was not "chic" or "mainstream." Criticizing images of SM does nothing to protect women and children from harm.

Olivia : Lesbianism is also becoming al the rage in mainstream media.

There is also the emergence of cliques within the lesbian culture of butch/femme, lipstick lesbians, power lesbians etc.æIs there a unifying lesbian "culture?" And if so, what is it?

Jean: The "unity" of the culture often depends on how big a city you live in!æI live in a small city or large town of 200,000 people which probably contains as diverse a lesbian community as many larger cultural centers, but here we don't have (for instance) a big enough BDSM crowd to support their own bar, OR enough working-class dykes, lipstick lesbians, executive types, etc., to support separate social space for every sub-community. Therefore we have to stay on speaking terms with each other if we want to maintain a community at all, and I think that is healthy.

I'm not sure whether there is still a general "lesbian culture" in the biggest bicoastal (New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles) cities.æI know that there used to be such a thing, simply because it was so dangerous to "come out" in the past (specifically before the Stonewall Rebellion of 1969) that the brave few who were publicly identified had a motive to stick together.

As far as "lesbian chic" goes, I believe it is at least somewhat an illusion, or a trick with mirrors.æEllen Degeneres was widely admired for "coming out" on TV, then her show was canceled. Coincidence? Lesbian mothers are still losing custody of their children (sometimes to respectably straight and better-paid fathers in the name of fairness to men and their right to parent), lesbians are still being fired, evicted, assaulted and discriminated against in subtler ways, even in places where we all have legal protection in theory.

The media phenomenon of "lesbian chic" often seems to refer to the cult followings of particular lesbian celebrities. As far as it goes, it seems like a good thing. (Who among us doesn't love the voice of k.d. lang, Melissa Etheridge or Joan Armatrading?) Celebrity cults, though, just don't

translate into guaranteed civil rights for a whole community.æThe popularity of this year's Dyke Icon doesn't guarantee me a good seat in a restaurant, let alone anything else!

"Lesbian chic" also tends to obscure the continuing power of the forces of bigotry while giving some bigots the idea that not only have women in general "taken over," but that PERVERT women(and/or men) are turning North American society into Sodom and Gommorrah. Appealing as that might be, it ain't true!

Most social, economic and political power is still firmly in the hands of the straight, the married, the white, the male, and the old. Most people's sex lives still aren't publicly visible -- or if they are, this information tends to prevent one from being taken seriously as anything other than an entertainer or a dirty joke.

Olivia : Marriage and prostitution have a lot more in common than most are willing to admit. Do you see a time when prostitution will be legalized throughout the world? Do you see a time when marriage as we know it will decrease in prominence to the point where it is no longer an expectation of society at large?

Jean: Sounds good, but this probably won't happen in my lifetime! I don't foresee a time when marriage IN ALL FORMS (including same-sex marriages) will disappear, but if women in general continue to gain better access to jobs that allow for a comfortable standard of living, the old economic motive for women's eagerness to marry won't be there.

Regardless of who gets paid what, heterosexual relationships don't seem likely to disappear, and many people in committed relationships want their commitment to be publicly recognized and honored.æSo marriage as emotional contract and living arrangement seems likely to endure. Marriage as an economic deal in which a man uses his money to buy a sex object, brood mare and housekeeper might (and hopefully) will become obsolete -- except where it is really consensual and surrounded by other options.

Worldwide legalization of prostitution would also be a good thing, but that also sounds like something I won't see in my lifetime. Keeping prostitution stigmatized, criminalized and out of sight benefits some people in the same ways that Prohibition brought fortunes to the most successful bootleggers, who therefore had no reason to want things to change.

Olivia : I do not often find lesbian fiction that I can relate to. As an accomplished writer of lesbian erotic fiction, do you feel the current lesbian fiction genre is inclusive enough to satisfy the multitude of women who call themselves lesbian?

Jean: "Accomplished," how flattering! The term "lesbian" as applied to fiction can mean contradictory things. As applied to erotic fiction that seems intended for straight men (especially if it follows a formula), "lesbian" usually seems to mean sex between women with no social, political or even emotional implications. Sally likes Suzy's big breasts; Suzy discovers Sally's clit. Sam likes watching them both. For most women who identify as "lesbian" (and many who identify as "bi"), this type of cartoon just doesn't catch the flavor of a life, a culture, or a real relationship.

Luckily, there are now many women editors and publishers who look for material with more depth, complexity and originality. However, "lesbian" still tends to mean specific things in specific contexts.æThe Naiad Press has published a fairly huge number of lesbian romances which contain certain staple elements. Other presses have other takes on the term "lesbian," and the best-known lesbian writers seem to have carved out their own niches in the reading market.

It is much, much easier now for a lesbian writer (especially a writer of lesbian erotica) to break into print than it was even in the recent past. However, a very unusual (or unusually honest and innovative) work might still be hard to place because publishers have a logical motive to choose material which they know they can sell.

I think there is still room for a bigger variety of lesbian literature than we currently have.

Olivia : Is there a consistent theme that runs through your fiction? If so, what is it?

Jean: It's hard to see consistent themes in my own work, especially the most recent, because I probably have less perspective on it than other people do.

One theme that I'm aware of, though, is the negotiation of differences. (Note my comments about living in a diverse but fairly small lesbian community). In a work of erotic fiction, differences can be sexy, but in real life, differences often cause conflict and frustration.

Even in the real world, I am still trying to find out which differences keep a relationship interesting and keep a community vibrant, and which ones are destructive.æThere are misunderstandings and credibility gaps which can be fixed by honest communication, but there is also a dangerously sappy myth (still current in a particular feminine culture) that all the world's conflicts could be resolved if people would just TALK to each other.æI don't believe this.

The ability to hear the truths of someone different from yourself still seems rare enough that it is thrilling when it happens.æThis seems intensely erotic to me.

Olivia : What are you working on at the moment?

Jean: More short stories. I would like to write a series based on a story of mine which was more popular with other members of the Erotic Readers Association than I ever expected before I presented it to the group. (This story is now on the short list for BEST LESBIAN EROTICA 2001.) A related story was published in an anthology, TEARS ON BLACK ROSES (edited by Kate Hill, Anxiety Publications, 1999). I like the idea of a collection of related short stories because this could combine the diversity of an anthology with the continuity of a novel.

My lesbian erotic novel, written last year, is in the hands of a publisher, and I'm waiting to hear whether it is accepted. I would like to write a sequel, but before spending the amount of time this would require, I would like to know whether anyone besides me and the few others who have read it would like to find out what happens next!

Olivia : Thank you Jean. We at girlphoria.com wish you all the best for the future.

Editor's note: Jean has consented to become our Reviews Editor. Also, Look for Jean's fiction to be featured in our upcoming issues of girlphoria.com!!!